Hackers' Pub is a place for software engineers to share their knowledge and experience with each other. It's also an ActivityPub-enabled social network, so you can follow your favorite hackers in the fediverse and get their latest posts in your feed.
ActivityPub, as it turns out, follows the actor model of computation. Okay, many people implementing the fediverse don't know about the actor model aspect of ActivityPub but I am here to tell YOU, dear reader, that it is an important thing, not a detail
I'll take one more note about federation which is that often time the message passing mechanism of the fediverse is often called "federation", but theoretically another mechanism could exist, but I'm actually not so sure of that.
There's a reason the actor model and the lambda calculus are undying
Maybe there is another way to achieve federation, but it's about the power dynamics. It's a technical immersion of power dynamics, the flow and interchange of cooperation between many parts.
So you may say, well, doesn't ATProto have that? After all, messages flow through the different parts!
ActivityPub, as it turns out, follows the actor model of computation. Okay, many people implementing the fediverse don't know about the actor model aspect of ActivityPub but I am here to tell YOU, dear reader, that it is an important thing, not a detail
So let me introduce two models of communication which we can use to analyze these two systems. It's important!
- Fediverse/ActivityPub: "message passing"
- Bluesky/ATProto: "shared heap"
Okay, cool, terms established, let's talk about them and why they matter because they matter A LOT
"Message passing" is what ActivityPub uses. It's "like email", people say, and that's true.
Actually it's even a lot like physical mail. You write a letter, you say where it should go, it gets delivered to your house.
Message passing. The world runs on it.
It's true that sometimes users click over to a thread and see some replies but not all on their instance's UI. There's things that could be done to improve it, but it's sometimes mildly confusing, but not so bad, and you can click over typically to see whatever else is happening, and people learn to
I actually think this is improvable but I mostly don't care because this isn't as big a complaint as people tend to think it is on the fediverse, the other concerns like "what instance do I pick" tend to be bigger and "oh no my server went down"
That can be improved, we'll talk about that later
On top of "message passing" we will build "publish-subscribe" as a second-layer abstraction
"Your ideas are interesting and I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter."
You send me a letter saying you'd like to hear the things I have to say, okay, you're part of the reader list. That's how it works.
On top of that we can build even more abstractions and the net result is that this is how federation works in pretty much every "federated" system I know.
ActivityPub does some extra work to help you see replies on a thread, think "letters to the editor". This is a bit lossy sometimes though
But to Bluesky's credit, Twitter's DMs aren't decentralized either! And getting and shipping something that works, now for the influx of Twitter users, again... I am sympathetic
Bluesky's team is doing an INCREDIBLE JOB in that way of scaling to meet the incoming stream of Twitter refugees
On that note, again, I am not reading the replies right now because I am (a) afraid to and (b) I'm never gonna finish this and we are a bit over HALFWAY THROUGH the analysis but I have this fear that EVERYONE is mad at me, Bluesky fans, fediverse fans
I am trying to be analytical. I am trying!!!
On that note, again, I am not reading the replies right now because I am (a) afraid to and (b) I'm never gonna finish this and we are a bit over HALFWAY THROUGH the analysis but I have this fear that EVERYONE is mad at me, Bluesky fans, fediverse fans
I am trying to be analytical. I am trying!!!
I said we are about halfway through and criminy we're halfway through the afternoon, I need a break to get some tea
We have a few big topics left:
- Decentralized identity, how does it work (magnets too, yes)
- The Org is a Future Adversary
- Christine critiques the fediverse
- Wrap up
Somebody stop me. #eh23
It is time for TEA BREAK 2: THE REHEATENING
I will also go to the bathroom
TMI? If you've read this far into this weird thread I am already giving you too much info
=== TEA BREAK 2 ===
I have returned, with tea
I am still not reading notifications. Well, I have seen a few fly by on the fediverse which is blipping and blooping nonstop in the Mastodon UI so people are clearly reading it there
Bluesky says "30+". How big is the +?? I will resist temptation to look and assume "31"
Pabu says "Sorry, couch is occupied, find a other spot"
I have returned, with tea
I am still not reading notifications. Well, I have seen a few fly by on the fediverse which is blipping and blooping nonstop in the Mastodon UI so people are clearly reading it there
Bluesky says "30+". How big is the +?? I will resist temptation to look and assume "31"
"Where are we going with this Christine?"
Well you could have just read the blogpost but 3 more sections remain, we are approximately 2/3 there
I know, bear with me, what is left is:
- What should the fediverse do?
- Preparing for the organization as a future adversary
- Conclusions
Before we get into the next section, earlier I left an easter egg, which you could reply to and say "I found the easter egg" or something
Now you can put 2 eggs
I 2 was once an egg
(Look I specifically transitioned so I could never be accused of making dad jokes again so that does not qualify)
Alright you've heard enough critiques of Bluesky for a bit and I SAID I was gonna critique the fediverse and I am a WOMAN OF MY WORD
So let's get into it!
Alright you've heard enough critiques of Bluesky for a bit and I SAID I was gonna critique the fediverse and I am a WOMAN OF MY WORD
So let's get into it!
I have actually critiqued ActivityPub and the fediverse a lot! I have kind of never stopped critiquing it, ever since the spec was released. There's a lot that can be improved!
I have even gotten criticism from AT LEAST ONE ActivityPub spec author for critiquing AP-as-deployed but I do anyway
Actually something that is funny about ActivityPub is that there's "ActivityPub the spec", which I think is pretty solid for the most part, and "ActivityPub-as-deployed"
Many of the critiques I'm about to lay out we left holes in the spec for which I hoped would be filled with the right answers
One thing we have already discussed so, before I will say anything else, I will repeat: content addressing is really good, and I'd like to see it happen in ActivityPub, and it's *possible to do*, I even wrote a demo of it https://gitlab.com/spritely/golem/blob/master/README.org
Bluesky does the right thing here, AP should too
I have actually critiqued ActivityPub and the fediverse a lot! I have kind of never stopped critiquing it, ever since the spec was released. There's a lot that can be improved!
I have even gotten criticism from AT LEAST ONE ActivityPub spec author for critiquing AP-as-deployed but I do anyway
Actually something that is funny about ActivityPub is that there's "ActivityPub the spec", which I think is pretty solid for the most part, and "ActivityPub-as-deployed"
Many of the critiques I'm about to lay out we left holes in the spec for which I hoped would be filled with the right answers
Anyway, if you know *anything* about me, you know I am a big fan of capability security (ocaps) and that's the foundation of our work over at 
@spritelyThe Spritely Institute
But we will come back to ocaps in a second because it turns out OCapPub is not the only time I proposed AP + ocaps!
The other time I wrote about ActivityPub + ocaps was in a proposal to, yes, Twitter's Bluesky process in 2020 with Jay Graber titled... "ActivityPub + OCaps"! https://gitlab.com/-/snippets/2535398
I think that document laid out all the right ideas for *the fediverse* (not saying bsky, the fediverse)
Content addressing is important. It should not matter where content "lives". It should be able to live anywhere.
A server should be able to go down, and content should survive.
Go content addressing!
Actually with this and several other things I am going to bring up, I actually made sure there was space to do things right: there was a push to make ActivityPub "https-only"
I pushed back on that, I didn't want that requirement, and it was exactly for this reason: enabling content addressing
This isn't the only time I left a critique of ActivityPub-as-Deployed as opposed to ActivityPub-as-it-could-be: see also OCapPub, which critiques the anti-abuse tools of AP as inadequate and leading to "the nation-state'ification of the fediverse" https://gitlab.com/spritely/ocappub/blob/master/README.org
Oh, and ocaps!!!
ActivityPub left giant holes in the spec around two things which sound the same but which are not the same: Authentication and Authorization
Trying to mix these two, you accidentally get ACLs, and then you get confused deputies and ambient authority, plagues of the security world
Now I want to be clear here that I *don't* think that proposal was necessarily the right one for Bluesky, and I *do* think Jay Graber *was* the right person to lead Bluesky
What I wanted to do required a lot more research, and we have done that over at @spritelyThe Spritely Institute instead
The reason I bring up the proposal here is that I think it has all the right analysis of *what the fediverse should do*, if it was going to rise to the challenge of fulfilling its true potential
So let me lay out what the things in that proposal were:
The reason I bring up the proposal here is that I think it has all the right analysis of *what the fediverse should do*, if it was going to rise to the challenge of fulfilling its true potential
So let me lay out what the things in that proposal were:
Here is your recipe for making the "Correct Fediverse IMO (TM)":
- Integrate ocaps, which is possible because actor model + ocaps compose
- Content addressed storage!
- Decentralized identity (notice the *y*, I did not say DIDs) on top of ~mutable CAS storage
- Petname system UX
(cotd...)
Spec-wise in ActivityPub, I think it's possible. The ecosystem, as deployed? I think the ecosystem can and will only do part of it, if we really get everyone excited, maybe the content addressed storage and decentralized identity parts, in which case the fediverse will also survive nodes going down
The ocap stuff, I tried getting fediverse implementers excited about this and tbh, it's pretty hard to design into a Ruby on Rails or Django style framework and mindset. Backporting the right designs to existing systems is a real challenge.
Especially ocaps need to go bottom-up.
(cotd ...)
- Better anti-spam / anti-harassment using OCapPub ideas
- Improved privacy with E2EE ("encrypted p2p" even a better goal)
Whew! An improved fediverse?
"Uh, Christine, this sounds like a lot, do you think the fediverse can take this on?"
Spec-wise in ActivityPub, I think it's possible. The ecosystem, as deployed? I think the ecosystem can and will only do part of it, if we really get everyone excited, maybe the content addressed storage and decentralized identity parts, in which case the fediverse will also survive nodes going down
Here is your recipe for making the "Correct Fediverse IMO (TM)":
- Integrate ocaps, which is possible because actor model + ocaps compose
- Content addressed storage!
- Decentralized identity (notice the *y*, I did not say DIDs) on top of ~mutable CAS storage
- Petname system UX
(cotd...)
(cotd ...)
- Better anti-spam / anti-harassment using OCapPub ideas
- Improved privacy with E2EE ("encrypted p2p" even a better goal)
Whew! An improved fediverse?
"Uh, Christine, this sounds like a lot, do you think the fediverse can take this on?"
For this reason, @spritelyThe Spritely Institute's tech looks like it's very focused on computer science'y low-level BS, but that's actually because it's *too hard to build the systems I want right now on top of current technology*, we need stronger foundations
But people have to build for today too
Let's leave the ocap stuff to the side for now, then. Let's focus on what Bluesky and the fediverse have to learn from each other.
- The fediverse should adopt content-addressed storage and decentralized identity
- Bluesky should adopt real, actual federation and decentralization
Let's leave the ocap stuff to the side for now, then. Let's focus on what Bluesky and the fediverse have to learn from each other.
- The fediverse should adopt content-addressed storage and decentralized identity
- Bluesky should adopt real, actual federation and decentralization
Of course, adapting an existing system as deployed isn't easy.
I will say though that I think if Bluesky were to become *actually decentralized* it would look a lot like ActivityPub in terms of having directed messaging. This will also introduce similar challenges around eg replies, etc.
Of course, adapting an existing system as deployed isn't easy.
I will say though that I think if Bluesky were to become *actually decentralized* it would look a lot like ActivityPub in terms of having directed messaging. This will also introduce similar challenges around eg replies, etc.
To the end of the fediverse, perhaps I sound bitter, "they didn't adopt ActivityPub the way *I* saw it!"
The truth is that Mastodon didn't, but Mastodon also saved ActivityPub. It then painted a vision of the future that wasn't, at least, what Jessica Tallon and I expected of it. But it saved AP.
To the end of the fediverse, perhaps I sound bitter, "they didn't adopt ActivityPub the way *I* saw it!"
The truth is that Mastodon didn't, but Mastodon also saved ActivityPub. It then painted a vision of the future that wasn't, at least, what Jessica Tallon and I expected of it. But it saved AP.
The fediverse and Bluesky, at great effort, could learn a lot from each other in the immediate term.
In the longer term, neither is implementing the ocap vision I think is critical for the big vision, and in a way, I think maybe neither can be easily rearchitected to achieve it. Well, not yet.
The fediverse and Bluesky, at great effort, could learn a lot from each other in the immediate term.
In the longer term, neither is implementing the ocap vision I think is critical for the big vision, and in a way, I think maybe neither can be easily rearchitected to achieve it. Well, not yet.
When I laid out the ideas of OCapPub to various fediverse developers, the response was "this sounds cool but I have *no idea* how to retrofit a Rails/Django app for this kind of actor-oriented design".
And they were right.
Remember when I said Conway's Law flows in both directions?
Remember when I said that IMO @jay.bsky.team is the right person to lead Bluesky and that I am sympathetic with many design decisions of Bluesky (even if critical of them for being non-decentralized)?
Bluesky is building what they can for a scale big objective. The tech flows from goals.
So too does the social structure flow from the tech. It does on Bluesky, and it does on the fediverse.
I won't elaborate further on this, I actually would like you to pause and think about it. In which ways are tech and social systems bidirectional, here and otherwise? It's important.
So too does the social structure flow from the tech. It does on Bluesky, and it does on the fediverse.
I won't elaborate further on this, I actually would like you to pause and think about it. In which ways are tech and social systems bidirectional, here and otherwise? It's important.
The vision laid out for the fediverse, both independently in my writings and even in Jay Graber and I's joint proposal... well, it's a big lift.
@spritelyThe Spritely Institute would like to see if we can retrofit our version onto ActivityPub. Time will tell if that's a separate thing.
The vision laid out for the fediverse, both independently in my writings and even in Jay Graber and I's joint proposal... well, it's a big lift.
@spritelyThe Spritely Institute would like to see if we can retrofit our version onto ActivityPub. Time will tell if that's a separate thing.
And perhaps this is all my *massive* Cassandra complex speaking. I won't deny that I have one, for better or worse
Still, despite all I have said about both Bluesky and the fediverse technically, it is because I want a hopeful direction for all of us. Secure collaboration. More important than ever.
Before I get any further, I just want to say that the Spritely Institute is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, your donations are tax-deductible in the US!
And we have a few different donor levels... some of them even let you get your name in video game credits! (More on that in a few!)
Spritely is built by people who know and understand decentralized (social) networks and their strengths and weaknesses today very well: 
@tsyesikaJessica Tallon and I, two co-founders (and the first two working on Spritely's engineering) are both co-authors of the ActivityPub spec powering the fediverse!
Spritely is built by people who know and understand decentralized (social) networks and their strengths and weaknesses today very well: @tsyesikaJessica Tallon and I, two co-founders (and the first two working on Spritely's engineering) are both co-authors of the ActivityPub spec powering the fediverse!
Unfortunately it's not feasible or easy to do everything we'd like in decentralized social networks today... not on the fediverse nor anywhere!
The vision of Spritely is "secure collaboration". Finding how to do it was a four-year research project before the Spritely Institute even launched!
I don't know about you, but there's a lot about the world today that worries me. I don't think building decentralized versions of Web 2.0 era social networks is going to get us there.
We need tech that's secure, that's robust.
We need tech that's *participatory*.
We need tech for you and me.
One of the things I'm most proud of about the fediverse is that it owes its success to a lot of queer people working on it. This lead to the fediverse being very queer itself. I'm proud of that.
Maybe it's weird to say, but that seems to be happening again with Spritely.
I laid out definitions of "decentralization" and "federation", and Bluesky meets neither, without major rearchitecting or moving the goalposts on those terms, which I cannot accept.
However, "credible exit" is a good goal for Bluesky. Bluesky created that term and it's a good and feasible goal.
I laid out a strong critique, but let me end on a call to empathy.
Bluesky is built by good people, and the fediverse is built by good people. Neither reflect the designs I presently would like to see today, but ultimately these are built by humans trying their absolute hardest.
@zkatkat I work in software AND I have an engineering degree, but I can't call myself a "Software Engineer" because in my jurisdiction, "engineer" is a controlled term.
The closest I can get is saying that I'm an "engineering graduate". I would have to get a professional designation from the province to do otherwise.
CNN To Go MAGA, Just Like Practically Every Other Cable News Outlet https://www.wonkette.com/p/cnn-to-go-maga-just-like-practically
なにもできない
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-----
#WeekInFediverse #Fediverse #ActivityPub
Previous edition: https://mitra.social/objects/019c7c6f-742a-7930-2413-73b1d9611c99
Literally Hytale
RE: https://mi.rerac.dev/notes/aj8vjz60i90o016q
Literally Hytale
RE: https://mi.rerac.dev/notes/aj8vjz60i90o016q
So I had to completely abandon social media and personal projects and whatnot for a while in order to raise a young family and succeed in a demanding job and remain alive. Now that job is gone! Oh no! On the plus side, my unceremonious departure has created a great deal of shareholder value.
So, if anyone out there knows someone who knows someone who's looking for someone who is an experienced engineer, and is also a very good communicator and designer and guy-who-actually-understands-how-to-make-products-good...let me know.
RE: https://mastodon.social/@sethmlarson/116143641143643176
Seth really did the work here. He even reported an incorrect usage in Whitenoise, which we released the fix for yesterday!
RE: https://mastodon.social/@sethmlarson/116143641143643176
Seth really did the work here. He even reported an incorrect usage in Whitenoise, which we released the fix for yesterday!
One of the small pleasures of my job is the brief encounters I have with the people teaching classes totally unrelated to my field right before and right after me in the same room.
I have just spent the evening calculating how many defleshed human skulls it would take to collapse inside their own Schwartzschild Radius and create a black hole (roughly 16.5 solar masses, or 2 x 10^31 skulls, if my maths is right). Because space opera, right? Can't think too small!
1/2
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nulta
Matt Massicotte
Hugo van Kemenade
